(politics)

"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer) 02/06/2019 at 20:10 • Filed to: None

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On forgiveness.

The reason why I post a G20 is because it’s made in San Luis Potosi, here in Mexico.

San Luis Potosi is a strange state to say the least, and the most famous politician from this state is Congressman Pedro Carrizales. He’s not famous for being the most liberal politician from the state, or for being againts police militarization, or for wanting to be the next governor, or for almost being killed a few days ago...

He’s famous because he’s been arrested multiple times. He used to be in a gang and is also a former drug user. Which is not a good fit for a politician in a country that lived a decade long war on drugs and crime... that ultimately failed.

Anyways. This man makes me question a strange thing that occurs around liberal people, specially in the USA. We find that criminal justice is not fair, and that some sentences are too harsh or misguided. Somehow the federal prison system is not having the effect people want... Which is to reform criminals into law abiding citizens.

Yet we find other offenses like sexual harassment or assault, and racism or racist acts unpardonable. People who were once racist or who in the past did something wrong should be ostracized from society.

You may think that because its a sex crime or a race crime.... they hurt whomever they did that to way too much, or that they can’t be representative of citizens in government anymore. But an exconvict like Carrizales made thousands suffer, but he entered congress as a changed man.

Arround a decade ago, Carrizales began changing, he started pulling people out of gangs, and into drug rehab. He also did community outreach and organized cease fires between gangs. He wronged people... and he tried to find ways to pays society back. I say this knowing that many people never even try to change.

Be it Al Franken or the current governor of Virginia.... How can a person in their position be remorseful of their past, taken accountable for it, and also keep their careers?

It is an uncomfortable question that I really don’t have the answer for. But, if liberals claim to be forgirveful of exconvicts, will they ever forgive people who truly lament their past? Al Fraken and Northam are politicians who can do a lot of good, even if there is a negative side to them.

Both of these people wronged badly, and it’s important that they face consequences. But can they ever come back? Could they ever continue their careers after facing consequences for their actions? Or should they be gone forever?

I ask this without a clear idea of what society should do with them.

For Sweden > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 20:21

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Americans have a phrase I like: It’s not the crime, it’s the cover up.

The right way out is to admit you were wrong and accept your lumps.

The wrong way out is to deny, attack the accuser, then get mad that you we re caught.

For Sweden > For Sweden 02/06/2019 at 20:25

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Corollary : an effective way out is to incriminate people below you in the line of succession. If you can incriminate everyone until you reach someone in the opposing party, all is forgiven.

Spanfeller is a twat > For Sweden 02/06/2019 at 20:26

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He didn’t even moonwalk....

For Sweden > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 20:27

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If he moonwalked, the Marshall of the Supreme Court would have made him President .

Spanfeller is a twat > For Sweden 02/06/2019 at 20:30

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Northam should probably leave office just out of all the stupid crap he said during that outing.

CB > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 20:30

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It’s all about what sounds good to a lot of people. I work in criminal justice and have a degree in criminology, and I've noticed that people are very quick to throw around the idea of rehabilitation, parole, et cetera, and then go "but I don't want them in my neighbourhood" or "I can't trust them since they already broke the law once" or "the got too lenient a sentence for what they did". At the end of the day, people aren't consistent.

For Sweden > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 20:31

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But if he leaves, a (maybe) rapist takes over

That’s how you protect yourself in politics.

interstate366, now In The Industry > For Sweden 02/06/2019 at 20:33

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You don’t have to go far down to find a member of the opposing party in the VA situation. Kirk Cox, the speaker of the Republican-controlled  House of Delegates (and, full disclosure, my local delegate) follows Herring.

For Sweden > interstate366, now In The Industry 02/06/2019 at 20:34

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Herring is safe then, at a minimum.

Spanfeller is a twat > For Sweden 02/06/2019 at 20:35

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Well, the AG is also caught in crap.

Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 20:35

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I obviously can’t speak for all liberal Americans, nor would I want to, but I’ll throw my explanation out at least.

I’d love to forgive someone that’s acknowledged their wrongdoings, then moved on with their life and tried to repay their debt to society. The issue at hand is with individuals that have risen high while shielding a past that was not only tolerant of racism, but as an active participant.

We’ve got a long and storied history of institutionalized racism here in the good ol’ US of A, it’s a big part of what “made America great”. I’m personally concerned with the idea of my governor attempting to disavow his participation in the photo by stating that he’d been in blackface another time (maybe because of the Klan uniform?). The Attorney General coming out with his own preemptive statement is almost even more offensive , but still done out of fear for his own ass, as opposed to a genuine repenting of racist actions. I don’t want these guys making life or death decisions (we’re a capital punishment state, I think the AG decides when to pursue those charges, and the Gov has clemency ).

I didn’t know what racism (covert or direct) was until I moved to southwest Virginia. I don’t give a fuck if blackface was “OK” at the time. I don’t care if it was just for a laugh as a couple college kids. There were college kids marching and getting firehoses and dogs turned on them in defense of civil rights. THOSE are the elected officials I want, not the rich, privileged motherfuckers lampooning civil rights in private when no one will find out, then acting like angels in public.

For Sweden > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 20:36

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But if he resigns, a Republican becomes governor.  That won’t happen.

Spanfeller is a twat > CB 02/06/2019 at 20:38

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Carrizales for instance is trying to get misdemenours out of people’s records, and hes also trying to remove some minimum sentencing laws, his party though is doing the opposite at the national level.

It is a very wierd moment, and it is a very hard discussion... we think of people with such esteem to their “purity” that we can’t see past their, well, past.

We also assign purity to some very random things...

CB > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 20:40

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Mandatory minimums do more harm than good for a lot of offences. In Canada, a conditional discharge can be given as a sentence, where if you follow your probation and don't commit another offence within three years, it gets removed from your record. I think it's a good idea for smaller offences.

Spanfeller is a twat > For Sweden 02/06/2019 at 20:41

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Yeah, those allegations againts Fairfax are also comming together, I hope they get investigated past this political ordeal.

For Sweden > CB 02/06/2019 at 20:44

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people are very quick to throw around the idea of rehabilitation, parole, et cetera, and then go “but I don’t want them in my neighbourhood”

This is how I feel about the potential return of Saab

Spanfeller is a twat > CB 02/06/2019 at 20:45

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I think that mandatory minimums are made to make people feel safer, but I do agree that they mostly just end up being negative. As for the record thing, I don't know. I can imagine that having a little asterisc in your CV could render you unemployable, which is one of the biggest issues for exconvicts.

Spanfeller is a twat > Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever 02/06/2019 at 20:47

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I do understand that sentiment, and it’s clear that Democrats in Virginia don’t have an interest in respecting the tough history when it comes to race.

I think my question was originally more open to cases where an accused person would admit wrongdoing and try to repay their debt, as Carrizales did. But it can't be translated to Northam's case, where covering his ass has been a driver of this crisis.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 21:03

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I do some work for a charitable foundation on occasion, which involves assessing community groups who are applying for funding. One thing that’s a sure fire indicator that a group is worth supporting i s if they’ve got an ex con, ex gang member, or other reformed bad guy as their driving force. There’s nobody as motivated or as effective as someone trying to make up for past wrongs, or to save others from making the same mistakes.

wafflesnfalafel > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 21:45

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yep - I’d add LBJ, Billy Clinton and Franklin D Roosevelt to that list as well.

DipodomysDeserti > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 21:54

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You lay down several false premises h ere.

For one, the goal of the US penal system is punishment, not reform. That’s why it is called the penal system. It’s having the intended effect. Some are trying to reform our penal system in order to focus on rehabilitation, but for the most part the goal remains punishment.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a race crime per se in the United States. It’s not illegal to be racist. You can be as racist as you want and say as many racist things as you want, as long as you don’t incite violence. We have federal hate crime laws, but those are tacked on to already existing crimes. They don’t punish people for being racist, they punish people extra for committing acts of violence because of their racism. If they were just a racist, they’d be in the clear legally. So, you can’t “forgive” someone, legally speaking, for being a racist, because it isn’t illegal.

Thirdly, even for acts that are major crimes (felonies), our justice system generally does not ever forgive them. Felonies usually stay with you the rest of your life, and some states won’t let you hold office if you’re a convicted felon.

As far as “Liberal forgiveness” is concerned, I’m not a Liberal, so I can’t really comment on the mental gymnastics someone has to go through to think it’s ok to have a racist in office because of their party offiliation, especially in the South. You have to keep in mind that many Southern states used to be run by the KKK, and their goal was to terrorize minorities into not voting or go about their daily lives. So, while notna crime, being a racist is a little more detrimental to society than having been a drug user.

Even if someone isn’t racist anymore, we’ve got over 300 million people in this country. If you can’t find someone who isn’t a shithead to run your state, you should probably pack it in.

nermal > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 22:05

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It’s because shunning people is wayyyyyyyy easier than actually acknowledging faults and fixing them. I dunno what happens to people when they are actually shunned, but generally politicians aren’t poor due to lobbying and corruption, so it’s not like they starve.

What do the actions of somebody 30+ years ago have to do with the way people will act today? It depends, and ranges from not much to very mu ch. The biggest deciding factor seems to be if they’re on your side or not.

The happenings in VA over the last week are a showcase for the rampant hypocrisy on both sides. The reality is that both sides DGAF about yearbook pictures or alleged sexual assaults or whatever else , they just want to make the other side look bad.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Spanfeller is a twat 02/06/2019 at 22:52

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I believe it requires acceptance of responsibility, some penance and reconsiliation. As for criminal justice the problem is too much is just cattle in a machine, with a crazy number of arrests for drug possesion. And when you’re out, a bus ticket and $ 20, No ID or any help. “ Good luck and don’t come back! ” /s

A history teacher once said laws c ome in when a social norm is no longer enough. Harassment and assault are clearly illegal with increasing punishment based on severity. T hen you have shitty behavior, but as a society we don’t have a good way of grading due to severity and what is/isn’t enough . 20 years ago a teary press conference might have been enough, but that was a time when a tv interview was unnu sual . Now you have a weirdo make a youtube video

facw > For Sweden 02/06/2019 at 22:53

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I assume if the Dems are successful at forcing people out, they’d have either the Lieutenant Governor or the Governor resign, and then get some hopefully less problematic person appointed to be the new Lieutenant Governor before forcing out the Governor. This does of course require cooperation from at least one of those two positions, but I imagine they can get the right carrots in place.    

For Sweden > facw 02/06/2019 at 23:00

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If he is a rapist, the current Lt. Governor shouldn't appoint anyone.

facw > For Sweden 02/06/2019 at 23:09

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I doubt we are going to ever have a definitive answer on that (which probably means he should go, even if he’s innocent, he’s compromised). But I don’t think it would be problematic for him to appoint someone with impeccable credentials.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > DipodomysDeserti 02/07/2019 at 08:29

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That last line’ s ironic considering who’s running the (nation) state.

DipodomysDeserti > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 02/07/2019 at 09:12

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I don’t see the irony. Garbage in, garbage out.